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The Lord, the Lady and Transgender

Loki Luci

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It seems a far-gone conclusion that nobody's bothered to start a discussion on Wiccan beliefs and their relevance to the Trans experience.
Here, then, is the first:
In Wicca, the belief that all forms of the Divine are manifest in everything in Nature and that the spiritual appearances are divided into The Lord God and the Lady Goddess, Father and Mother Divine. My personal Wiccan beliefs extend the idea that we are all Children Divine, members of a Universal family where no one is excluded. Our souls can have gender or remain genderless, as we are Divine beings manifest in mortal bodies, living and experiencing from a finite and fragile perspective.
This often is expressed very binary and many covens and Wiccan groups will reflect the binary genders in their rites. However, not all do. Many recognize that there are plenty of signs that show that both mortal creatures and Divine Aspects change their gender polarity or fluidity, especially in old lore and myth. The concept that a little bit of the Divine Masculine and Divine Feminine are present inside each of us is not lost in the greater Wiccan theological discourse.
However, often, in our Earth-based spirituality, there is a certain bias towards what is natural and reiterated throughout Nature. This often leans heavily on a consensus science view of the natural world and how it manifests. Transgender, as a state of being, seems very much in an uncomfortable caveat.
As a person who identifies as a transwoman, I had to struggle with what greater purpose gender dysphoria and identifying as the gender not of your assigned one at birth. In my view, which is not speaking for all Wiccans, I see our lives as a journey, like a pilgrimage, having a mix of planned and unplanned, free will and subjective experiences. Some of the journey is a quest of our wills seeking something. Other parts are filled with challenges and lessons meant to address our vices, flaws and glaring needs to grow spiritually. Yet other parts are about the fulfillment and consequences of actions, both personal and interpersonal. In our lives (as Wiccans believe in reincarnation), we sometimes forget somethings and can put ourselves in a difficult position.
Everything is unique and the reasons of a person's transgender journey is unique, to me. Yet, the common thread could be that sometimes we need to carefully and mindfully be engaged, walking through the process of personal transformation to see and understand matters that would have been overlooked otherwise. With me, myself, I believe that I failed to address some matters from a few of my male -incarnate lives while having my soul ready for a female life. I recognize that some cis people identify their soul as one gender, forever, but I think that most transgender do not, for one reason or another.
As Divine Children empowered with the natural abilities of magick (spelled to contrast to sleight of hand magic), our spiritual selves are connected to but not restricted by the physical vessel (our bodies). Here, we could see our spiritual transformations might not always align with how our bodies develop and this is a minority Path associated with the Trickster and Crone aspects of the Divine. The Trickster shifts many forms and plays many parts, seeking Their desire and finding extraordinary means to accomplish them. The Crone sees beyond the quaint devices and trappings of time and circumstance. Trans identity, gender dysphoria and non-binary are, to me, all part of that dance, where we transform ourselves by looking beyond the superficial nature of our material forms to our truer selves and greater purpose. The dance can also be about reflecting the ability to become something else that would seem impossible to achieve, a miracle in flesh. These modes could be seen as breaking the mold to bridge a gap that sometimes divides or bring knowledge home to rest.
I'm curious what your thoughts are on this.
I admit there are probably some better ways of looking at the idea
 

Monica

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I come at things from an atheist perspective which means I relate to science and look for simplicity in any model of why things are as they are. Well, then I had a college English course and this professor introduced me to the importance of, to use a general term, 'poetry.' The world is more than just facts and figures and emotions and colors are just as important. It strikes me that your view is a very colorful one. I don't mean that in a negative way. It is interesting. Strictly from my perspective, if the philosophy works and doesn't involve hurting another, I say go for it. I love the diversity, love the free expression of ideas on spiritual topics. If we do talk further, you might find me asking the 'why's' of why you believe something, just as I might any religion. It is not being disrespectful, more like curiosity.
 

Linde

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Moni, I never had the poetry class, and my reduced emotions cannot comprehend, what people get out of poetry. Never in my life did I write a poem or a love story , and reading poems bors me to death.
I am absolutely facts and figures oriented, but I like a colorfull world, only it has to be visible colors.
I am not really an atheist, because I do not want to be one, I want to believe in a higher being, I can turn to with my fears and my hopes that cannot be answered by facts. This means, I am somewhat a Christian person, but outside of any organized churches.
This Wicca belief is even less appealing than the Catholicism I grew up with, and it for sure will not entice me to even think more about it.


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Monica

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Linde, I phrased it poorly. I didn't mean poems as in written down poems. I meant more like the beauty in the world unrelated to facts. To enjoy the beauty of a story, the color of a flower, those kinds of things. I can appreciate the story that is told in Luci's words. I don't have to believe it or not believe it. I am grateful for her ideas. The diversity benefits us all. The exception is philosophies that hurt or hate. I don't see the beauty in something like that. You are part of the diversity of life and I appreciate your views. There is benefit to listening to others without judgement and just taking it in. It's experience and gives perspective. Now as I'm being so serious, I feel the need to tell a poop joke to show I'm not completely full of myself. I'll resist, but I hope you'll take the diversity that is me, roll your eyes, shake your head and appreciate you are not as bat winged crazy as I.
 

Loki Luci

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@Linde , you are certainly welcome to live your "truth" and do what fulfills your being! Wicca is not a proselytizing faith and is not about missionaries or wining people over. So, no need to feel like it has competition. It's also not an institutionally organized one, either. I like to think of it as an "open-sourced" belief system that has basic foundational beliefs, but is not tied to an authority or strict guidelines. This aspect does turn many people off to Wicca because they feel it is a laze faire or too "anything goes" sort of religion.
It is about a very humanistic participation with the Universe and a belief that we are cocreators of our reality. Science is not antagonistic nor a major player in the faith, despite some people labeling anyone who could believe in Magick (the power and phenomenon of Change and Miracles; often seen as the immaterial force of consciousness) as being "anti-Science". It's just a anthrocentric view, much like you @Moni can appreciate the "poetry" of Life, the non-analyzed qualitative aspects of being human in a naturalistic world. Logic, rules and "facts" are not the point of spirituality, anyway, right?
In my Wicca, I often view deity as both conscious and self-governing but also as a reflection of our own selves in Nature, not some disconnected being that can make or break Reality as They whim. This means that I'm never alone, never disconnected from all that is virtuous or capable of providing Good in my life. For me and other Wiccans, this puts us, the Children, in the seat of being responsible for our actions, not out of fear of reciprocity, but out of genuine concern for our influence on each other and the world around us. Not everyone agrees with this concept either. I think we all have different paths because it takes diversity to keep a world and a Universe together, just like it takes more than one organism or species to make an ecosystem. Critical and careful atheists remind us that not everyone sees the same things that ascetics and such see. Christians and Muslims remind us that the Divine is unified and not in conflict with Themself. Hindus remind us that we can bring diversity of thought together in a spiritual way to benefit humanity. Neo-pagans, like Wiccans, show that we can reinvent religious expression to honor our individuality, our soul's uniqueness and bring spiritual thought into a more modern context.
Thank you both for sharing your views!
 

Monica

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For me and other Wiccans, this puts us, the Children, in the seat of being responsible for our actions, not out of fear of reciprocity, but out of genuine concern for our influence on each other and the world around us.
Luci, I especially like this concept. So many religions out there teach that you better be good or the invisible man in the sky is going to be pissed off at you, that you are at risk if you aren't 'good.' I'm kind of like, well then, is that really genuine? If you had a child who only does good things because of fear, would you feel proud of that? I'd rather someone believe in good and do good because it is just the right thing to do. It's sensible and logical and it makes you feel good to help someone else. Maybe that is impractical in this world of a kazillion people. There is so much hatred and killing in people doing it for their god. The territorial nature of religion I guess is another topic, so I'll stop there.

I debated with myself taking out the term above, 'invisible man in the sky.' I don't want to offend anyone reading this, truly. Then again, as an atheist this is kind of how it seems to me. I'm on the fence. I'm leaving it in because of the question I'm about to pose to Luci. Perhaps the phrasing is an example of my smugness with my own views. I'll leave it up there, maybe I'll learn from it. Anyway, Luci, do you find that if you mention being Wiccan, does the room go quite? Do you get a vibe from others of, "Whoa, what's up with that?" I can imagine you getting much the same reaction as saying one is an atheist, maybe worse. We all here know the feeling of being the strange one or at best the exotic one in the room, being trans. I'm not calling your beliefs weird, don't get me wrong. If the person walks in and says, " I'm Baptist, hello!" people are used to that and know roughly what that's about. People tend to be uncomfortable with unfamiliar things. So, I thought I would ask.

Oh, question #2, what's up with Stone Hinge? Okay, sorry, that is me being a wise ass. Ever get the feeling after writing a post of, "People are gonna appreciate this post!" or, "People are gonna come after me with pitchforks after this post." , well, this is one of those posts for me. If it's the latter, okay, okay, everyone, calm down, "Put the candle back! Frankenstein went that way! I come in peace. Exit stage left."

Boy, damn atheists are weird!!!;)
 

Linde

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Aren't we all weired in our own way, Moni.
With me being very agnostic, atheists are closer to me than any other group of belivers/non belivers.
But if you look into the real meaning of Christianity, there is no being good because of the fear of punishment.
This being good because of fear is something the evangelical version of Christianity have brought to us, and it is specifically strong in the US.
In the version of Catholicism I grew up, this fear was not emphasized, and we had the confessions to ask God to forgive us our sins. I assume God forgave them, because nothing bad happened to me because of doing semi bad things. For us, God was the heavenly father who loved us, and was not out to punish us.
The US version of Catholicism is vastly different, it is more like the evangelicals. When I first came into this country, and went to a Catholic church service, I did not recognize it as the religion I grew up in.
From the US point of view concerning Christianity, Wicca sounds liberating, I get this, but from my point of view, it sounds like mumble jumble my forefathers got done with many centuries ago.
I am pretty happy that I was able to leave organized Christianity behind me ( I still don't want to give up my belief in a higher being, and I talk with God every night, this is my version of meditation), and I have no desire to stifle my freedom with other belief systems.

That's me, the semi atheist who wants to continue to believe in God.

Hugs
Linde
 

Loki Luci

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@Moni , excellent questions! Before I get to them, I just want to take a moment to address the "weird" factor. In Sociology, they talk about the polarity of Conformity vs. Non-conformity (sometimes referred in the extreme as "Deviant"). It's not a label of good or bad, but whether it is, in context, conforming to social standards or norms. I hate to say it, but if you're here, on a Transperson forum, odds are that you are Non-conforming and "Deviant" to the majority of your surrounding society.
Okay, how do I feel about the reactions people have when I talk about being Wiccan? Do I feel like the crickets chirp and a thousand mouths fall silent with empty stares of mixed feelings reflected in onlookers' eyes as they turn towards me? Am I getting the mood right, @Moni ?
I've had a few times of coming out in my life. One of them was coming out of the "broom closet", as we joke in witchcraft circles, to my Evangelical Mother (yes, @Linde , we'll get to that in a moment). She didn't know how to process that and just defaulted to the idea that I would be damned for all Eternity and that we should enjoy family together before I go to Hell. That's a pretty common reaction from many Christians, no offense @Linde. There's still a majority, even in Catholicism, rule of Conformity, and, though Wiccans believe in a God, too, that's not enough to get them out of paying for their sins of witchcraft and other deviance in Purgatory, or worse.
I find that when people are willing to open up in a sharing of their beliefs sort of way that there's less gawking at the freaks and more just conversation and a lot of "well, that's interesting". When I talk to people about me being Wicca, it's not the ones who are ignorant of what Wicca is that make me feel uncomfortable, it's the ones who claim to know what Wicca is and are cynical and mean about their critique of it, like they are willing to trash talk something I identify with to purposefully hurt me just for their amusement or schadenfreude.
Most of the reactions from people I've talked with about atheism is actually pretty accepting, even if they disagree. I'm currently in a heavy mixed Protestant and American Catholic (versus Roman Catholic, there is a difference) community and there are agnostics and atheists that speak their mind all the time. It's everything else that gets the silent treatment, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Paganism, etc.
I wasn't offended, at all, @Moni . No worries!
As for Stone Hinge, that's not a Wicca thing, that's a poorly abused and equally poorly reconstructed ruin of a civilization some time before the Celtic tribes (and their priestly/learned class of Druids) came to the British and Irish Isles. There's just a fascination with it and wonder at how it was built and what it's purpose was. Because people have used the site for religious ceremonies for so long, it has a kind of essence, a rich poetry associated with it's ambiance. One could say that just like major temples, churches or such, like the Hagia Sophia and the Sistine Chapel, even those of secular minds (like atheists) find inspiration or just the pleasure of experiencing something old and central to the focus of many. There are Wiccans who have strong feelings about the Hinge, but I'm more fascinated by the nature of the materials and architecture that went into it and wonder why there are so many structures from the Neolithic Era that were built with similar pattern around the world.
As for your thoughts that Wicca sounds like "mumble jumble", @Linde , I could understand the idea that Wicca seems like a mix of old superstition and wishful thinking to a more traditional, yet less dogmatic Catholic, such as yourself. That's your right to express that. Though, if one were to take offense to your statement and push back, they could easily default to either atheistic or highly critical modes of bashing your beliefs. How about we not go there?
I didn't choose any form of Christianity, after leaving my parent's church and their faith, because I:
-Don't believe in the Divinity of Jesus Christ, no believe that he holds any salvation for me
>I believe that we are all Sons and Daughters of the One that is All, The All that Is One. We all have divinity in us, I believe.
-Don't agree with the agreed upon tenets of the faith, as was agreed and outlined in the ecumenical councils between 325 and 787 CE (AD, if you like)
>I believe that great ideas and philosophies are like wine, they come from diversity and mingling while taking time to test them. They're not science, so there's no falsifiability or other testing them to prove they're true. Wisdom, in how I see it, is a humanistic guide to our ways of thinking about the whole, not facts.
-Don't believe in God as a tripartite being of mostly masculine alignment nor as a neuter, proto-being that sits dispassionately outside of a flawed creation (our world) tainted by sin
>As I've mentioned, I believe that the Divine manifests in all forms, Masculine and Feminine. Heck, there's even forms that are Non-binary, but not indifferent to the manifest World, in my view. I believe that what is seen as flawed is actually what humans think is so, and that Nature does things with Her own structure, intention and with an inclusive attitude towards the desires and actions of countless beings, including, but not restricted to humans. I believe that we can take the toxic things we harbor, like hate and prejudice, and "pollute" our environment with them. However, we can also change one thing into another, turn what was once used for hate and nurture understanding, or the like. What disharmonies lie in the world are not inherent, to me, but something generated, often by negligence or ignorance.
-Don't feel that, whether out of fear or not, we need to ask forgiveness of the Divine for being human, whether by erring or straying from a humanly ordained set of moral and ethical rules of being "righteous"
>I believe that compassion and listening/learning to understand one another, including ourselves, helps us find solutions to real problems and issues. I recognize that there is a wide diversity of moral philosophy and that my own is not always the best in every situation and is not suited to all persons.
-Don't believe that judging or sanctioning judgment of other people's ways of life or philosophies does any good for anyone.
>I believe, rather, that compassionately understanding, while setting and maintaining boundaries is a good method and policy.
-Don't feel connected or better acquainted with the Divine through the Christian cosmology or narrative
>To be honest, I don't feel connected to the Divine through any one cosmology or narrative as set out by any group. I share views with Hindus and their view, I relate with many occultists, I find depth in Buddhism and comfort in Shinto, but not one holds my unique way of looking at things. Wicca just allows me the framework to live that unapologetically.
-Don't believe, that in a spiritual Universe, that we (especially if we were made in God's image) are powerless subjects, but rather we, too, have spiritual power and sovereignty
>I believe that our souls hold a characteristic of the Divine and have the ability to influence the Universe on an immaterial level. Our thoughts and emotions have "substance" on that level and, thus, are part of the medium we apply our influence. To me and other Wiccans and witches, there is a spiritual artform of utilizing this connection and ability to make changes manifest in our lives and the world around us. I'm used to referring to it as Magick, the Subtle Art. It is like every other trade skill, technology or craft, there are ways to abuse it and ways to use it for benefit.
These are a few of the reasons I, myself, didn't choose Christianity, @Linde . I am not saying that Christianity is wrong for you or that Wicca is supposed to make sense to you.
Thank you both for this discussion! Cheers!
 

Linde

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@Loki Luci , as I wrote, I am a semi atheist, who wants to keep the God she grew up with, as the focus for meditation.
I was born and raised in an area that was very early used for human habitat (about 30 to 40 miles away from The Neanderthal), and this area was also one of the cradles of Celtic culture, from there this culture migrated to the British Islands. Christianity came rather late to our neck of the woods (it took Charlemagne or Charles the Great to introduce my people to it). There is some memory of the druids left in folk sagas and tales, and most of the people seemed to be happy to have left this time behind. Christianity seemed to have been more appealing to the people.
But I have to say again, our version of Christianity is very different of the version I experience here in the US (maybe we have some Wicca ideas left in it?), and because of that difference, I have left anything called organized Christianity, or organized religion. I am happy with my current situation, having a God I can talk to, but be not bothered by any stiff rules or regulations that are mostly man made to suit the organization.

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Linde
 

Monica

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Don't believe that judging or sanctioning judgment of other people's ways of life or philosophies does any good for anyone.
>I believe, rather, that compassionately understanding, while setting and maintaining boundaries is a good method and policy.
I definitely agree with this with some exceptions. First let me say, since you don't know me very long Luci, that my frivolous comments, my silliness, is not meant as disrespectful. It is kind of who I am, and also, I like a bit of silliness as a hedge against any friction that might happen in a spiritual conversation where views are different. It is clear you are highly intelligent and have put much thought into your views. Now back to our regularly scheduled program. I try to listen to others and learn. My stance is respectful and not one of winning anyone to my view. The exception I spoke of above is when someone speaks of harm or control over others, especially if they are trying to install their views in government. Many religions are very patriarchal to the point of abusing women. The thought of a religion protecting child abusers, well that just blows my mind. So, I'm an atheist, right? If ones goes on You Tube and listens to the high profile atheists, that should be something I would relate to, no? Well, no, they are some of the most condescending, scornfully superior chuckleheads on the planet. I might generally agree with what they believe in, but the attitude is really terrible. Respect and benefit of the doubt are key to me, but some things are just plain wrong. So in a conversation, when I come upon someone I see as believing something harmful to others, I'll at most ask questions. After all, no one changes anyone else's opinion, so why fight. If someone on the other hand says this is my belief and I have it because my parents were and my grandparents were, so I am the same. I wonder to myself how much thought went into this important life choice, how do you know you have a moral religion. If I wanted to pursue that further, the respectful way would be to ask questions, not put them on the defensive with a blunt comment. So much is in the approach. Sometimes having a good argument is not enough. It doesn't bode well to win your argument at the cost of a friendship.
it's not the ones who are ignorant of what Wicca is that make me feel uncomfortable, it's the ones who claim to know what Wicca is and are cynical and mean about their critique of it, like they are willing to trash talk something I identify with to purposefully hurt me just for their amusement or schadenfreude.
Yes, if you are mean, no matter what facts or logical argument you have, you have lost the argument. By the way, I see nothing in your beliefs that I would consider worthy of receiving trash talk.

Oh, I'm worn out, been serious too long. Exhausting! ;)
 

Loki Luci

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@Moni , no worries! I might not know you, but I feel like a lot of the perspective you've been talking about, as an atheist, I have herd from others that identify as atheist. So, I just wanted you to feel a little more at ease knowing that you didn't sound weird or offensive, to me.
@Linde , I could see that perspective and respect that. Emperor Charlemagne did help out many different communities, but he also gave a convert-or-die ultimatum to the Saxons, which was not kindly accepted. So, I may disagree that Christianity was gladly received, it is too late now and there are problems in every frame of socially upheld religion, pagan/heathen or Christian. Europeans, as a whole, have integrated the Christian viewpoints into their culture, so I could totally understand the lack of desire to resurrect any of the pre-Christian stuff, especially since the last big example of that was polluted in the Nazi party propaganda.
Wicca, as an actual religion was started in the early 20th century by a group of folklorists and occultists. So, there wasn't any of it around in Europe until the World War Era, as an attempt to claim old things, again. It was founded on older Celtic and Mediterranean pre-Christian beliefs, but it was also mixed with folklore surrounding witches and some popular esoteric concepts of the day. It was supposed to be the "Religion of the Witches", according to one of the "founders", Alexander Gardner. Since then, Wicca has evolved by many differing philosophies and pagan (non-Abrahamistic) beliefs, so it is nothing like the Wicca Mr. Gardner practiced.
Though I do identify as Wiccan and witch (an eclectic, freelance practitioner of magick not tied to a strict order or stiff regiment of occultic thought and artform), I do not glorify the old folklorist image of witch nor would many from that era agree with my Wicca. I took a lot of my views from Shakti Hinduism, Zen Buddhism, Shinto and a Mediterranean Neoplatonism mix of theurgy and mysticism. A lot of my contemporaries still like to wear black pointy hats and dabble in herbalism with a bohemian mindset. The trappings of the old "Religion of the Witches" aesthetic. I'm an odd duck, no matter what.
 

Linde

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Emperor Charlemagne did help out many different communities, but he also gave a convert-or-die ultimatum to the Saxons, which was not kindly accepted. So, I may disagree that Christianity was gladly received,
The Saxons were some unruly tribes in the far east. I lived as west in todays Germany as one can live west, mostly in the 3 country corner, where Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands touch each other. Out tribe was lower Franconian, the same people Charlemagne was part of.

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Oh, my Goddess.

I think I'm a bit late to this topic, but, hey, what can I say? As a Green Pagan, (Firmly rooted in Wicca) I move at a different pace than a lot of the world. Sometimes I move fast, going from one stage to the next in my life with very little room to breathe. Hummingbirds are rarely as active as I am, when I feel the need to get projects accomplished.

Other times, especially in matters of the heart and soul, it's more like an oak. Slow moving, but constant to a fault.

In my faith, I'm the latter. Constant, and steadfast. I too agree with the duality of the higher powers, the Feminine and the Masculine. Neither one is greater, neither one is lesser, and in a way, one is always present with, and within the other. They can be both male and female, none or all. They are the thing, in my opinion, that gives matter mass. The "god particle" to borrow from a certain Dan Brown novel.

And even though I say they are the God and Goddess, and I refer to them as Cerrunnon and Gaia (or the triple Goddess), I believe that They are revealed in every religion in Their own way. And I believe that They are more than we could ever comprehend, and that that is why there are so many different religions. Every single one is a path towards the rest before the wheel of time turns, and we are once more, trying to find a better version of ourselves.

All in all, I firmly know that whether you believe in Wicca, or Christianity, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Islam, or any of the myriad religions of this planet, it isn't what you believe in, it's that your beliefs inspire kindness. Atheist, Agnostic, Pagan, or Catholic, as long as you are kind, it doesn't matter. It's all okay.
 
En Femme 728 x 90
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