Dr. William J. Powers - Biological factors of gender dysphoria and transitioning

[Kenna]

I read in an article recently the very true fact that there is no such thing as a universal universal experience of womanhood. The experience of a wealthy, well-educated woman in a progressive nation has only fractions of experience in common with poor women in the favelas of Rio de Janeiro, a black woman in the shanty towns of Cape Town, or almost any woman living in Saudi Arabia.

There are many valid adjectives that can describe a woman: rich, poor, black, white, tall, short, vindictive or compassionate are all examples, none of which detract from their womanhood. To me, trans, or transgender are just more adjectives that can legitimately describe a woman.

(How did we branch onto this topic?)

-Kenna

 

[Michelle_P]

As I understand it, this is not so much about sharing a pie as it is about sharing an experience, where the argument is that we - as late comers to the female world - and as former members (no pun intended) of the oppressing gender, should have no right to claim “womens” rights, since we were not subjected to their life long suffering from male oppression.

In my opinion this is a point that can be made with at least some validity, as long as it hinges on “life long oppression” and not on biology as the TERF fraction would argue. And of course as long as we are talking about women’s rights, not human rights AS women.

The ‘shared experiences argument is rather narrower than many realize. I’ve heard it before, a few times.

“You were not socialized as a woman growing up.” True, my experience in growing up was not typical of what a white upper-middle class woman in the US would experience. It is, however closer to that experience than that of a woman growing up as Mosuo in China, or Khasi in India. “You enjoyed male privilege.” Sort of, but as a sissy nerd, I was on the outermost fringes of male experience, the target of routine beatings and a nasty sexual assault, so I can’t say I ENJOYED male privilege.

These are rationalizations for trans-exclusionary folks ruling out contact with entire classes of humans. Small classes, to be sure, but they are excluded for simply being what they are. Most of these rationalizations have their roots in a hateful book, Janice Raymond’s “The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male” (Beacon Press, 1979), which promoted a bizarre mythology about transgender people and women in particular.

 

[Marie62]

How did we branch onto this topic?

... for once it wasn‘t me, not pointing ...

But true, Powers and his „system“ are what this is about. Have any of you already waded through his „short 2 hour version“ video on YT? - I am only ~35 mins in and I am already worried about all of his jovial „so I figured“ stuff.

It is way to early for me to form an opinion and when it comes to hormones I am clearly much less qualified than even he is, and who knows, perhaps he is 100% right and we will find ourselves hailing him as our "liberator" in 15 years time, but at least for now his stanza towards at least some of the complex neuroendocrine system issues involved is bitterly remindful of the „ingest disinfectants for Covid-19“ reasoning of the person in office ...

And then, in 1500 transgender patients he has supposedly only seen one (1) with a sexual abuse history and one (1) with autogynephilia? This is totally "incredible" and perhaps shows that he just might be a "bright young lad" and perhaps also a gifted doctor and thinker, but perhaps is (still) lacking the necessary seriousness and humility in his presentation? - Just thinking ...

P.S. I edited and amended this post twice, since I found what I had initially written to harsh and lacking. So, for anyone who has already read it and wants to comment, please read again, and sorry about this, thought I'd better "disclose" ...

 

[Marie62]

@Michelle_P I think not having ENJOYED male privilege is common ground between most (voices against „all“, anyone?) of us here, but we did grow up in a society that viewed us differently from women, nonetheless!

There are many ways of being placed on the fringes and if we weren‘t put there, we did it ourselves to not be associated with all of this „maleness“. The latter is me and I am truly sorry to hear of your horror. But no matter how and how much we suffered in our space, we did so as males and had the privilege over women pushed onto us.

It is therefore totally unfair for us to be confronted with „male chauvinist pig“ style arguments, but it is a reality that merely being male from society‘s view gave us an advantage, worse yet, one that is rooted in life long experience and sublimely expressed in behavior and language and thus sadly stays with us even as we transition ...

 

[Kenna]

After being thoroughly socialised into "being a man" I managed to "enjoy" male privileged for a while, after a difficult childhood and adolescence. I married, had a family, various jobs of increasing status and then my own business until I eventually started struggling with "depression". In hindsight it was probably unrecognised gender dysphoria, hence its non-response to medication. I sort of managed for a couple of decades through divorce and loss of the business, eventually resuming social work, moving fairly quickly to adult mental health and eventually specialisation, although my "depression" never really left until I finally recogised my true gender. I immediately recognised all sorts of little interactions in daily life that had a gendered element and became aware of lots of convenient privileges that would be lost as my presentation changed, along with gendered prejudices that were likely, but I also gained the benefit of beginning to explore the satisfaction and coherence of being myself.
-Kenna

 

[Marie62]

@Kenna well, exactly, same here (actually MUCH of the same including history), but as of lately I have come to realize that no matter how well I transition and how much "true" woman I will become, I am still carrying that "package" of having learned male dominance and that no matter how much I aim to suppress that, it will always be there and it will always help me along.

Besides, being 193 cm and 94 kg (sinking) does not help at blending in, so this IS a definite disadvantage at being female, but an clear cut (yet unwanted) advantage elsewhere.

I do not mean to spoil the fun, and I am very much saddened by all of this, but I have come to accept it as a reality, also since understanding it is there and always "at work" allows me to keep tabs on myself to try and suppress this automatism as much as possible.

 

[OzGirl]

I never did enjoy male privilege as my femininity was apparently obvious. Girls wanted to be my friend as they felt they could talk to me, men recognised I was different, as I could never relate. I did cry easily as well. I experienced the glass ceiling, where multiple times I was clearly the best qualified candidate but men above me blocked me. It probably didn't help that I didn't drink alcohol and avoided social settings. When I took over raising my 2 small children on my own, I was invited to join a mothers club, and they were happy for me to mind their children, felt so comfortable with me that at times, despite me presenting as male, I was invited to makeup and jewellery parties. I remember one mother inviting me to a jewellery party then saying "I'm sorry, I forgot you were a man, you don't have to come to the party, unless you would like to, because we would all love having you there."

Does this mean I am good with Terfs?

Allie

 

[Marie62]

Allie, this does sound wonderful and I can totally relate to how nice it feels to be accepted by the women around you. Didn't always work for me, but when it did and it mostly did, I revelled in it! And during puberty my girl friends actually saved my life a few times, so there goes ...

Wonderful story about the party invitation and her "forgetting" that you were a "man" has got to be the nicest compliment she could possibly have made you! - As for the TERFs, sure, they would invite you to their jewellery parties, at least if you promised to wear "ball and chain" style jewellery ...

 

[OzGirl]

Allie, this does sound wonderful and I can totally relate to how nice it feels to be accepted by the women around you. Didn't always work for me, but when it did and it mostly did, I revelled in it! And during puberty my girl friends actually saved my life a few times, so there goes ...

Wonderful story about the party invitation and her "forgetting" that you were a "man" has got to be the nicest compliment she could possibly have made you! - As for the TERFs, sure, they would invite you to their jewellery parties, at least if you promised to wear "ball and chain" style jewellery ...

Marie, back then (30+ years ago) it unnerved me a bit as I was really trying to passes a male. I did know my maternal instinct showed, it was why my wife left, and why I was invited into the Mothers Club . Strange thing though, not one person who got to know me throughout my life ever guessed I was trans. Yet I was accepted as a mother, and that I treasured above all.

Hugs,

Allie

 

[Marie62]

Allie, oh my, to receive without yearning is tough, but come on, you LOVED it, admit to it!

It ~somehow~ never goes down well with wifes when we invade their space. I think the first time I truly alienated my wife was when I told her how jealous I was of her being pregnant and that I wanted it to be ME who carried and gave birth to our children.

At the time I only "wondered" why on earth I was saying that and thought it was "weirdly funny", but I am sure my wife was pretty shaken by it, she did not say, she cried. What an asshole I must have looked and sounded, but it felt so right and so important inside!

Damn, being trans really is tough on our loved ones ...

 

[OzGirl]

Allie, oh my, to receive without yearning is tough, but come on, you LOVED it, admit to it!

It ~somehow~ never goes down well with wifes when we invade their space. I think the first time I truly alienated my wife was when I told her how jealous I was of her being pregnant and that I wanted it to be ME who carried and gave birth to our children.

At the time I only "wondered" why on earth I was saying that and thought it was "weirdly funny", but I am sure my wife was pretty shaken by it, she did not say, she cried. What an asshole I must have looked and sounded, but it felt so right and so important inside!

Damn, being trans really is tough on our loved ones ...

My wife left saying I made her feel inadequate as a mother. She really was. She couldn't wake for feeds, so I got up through every night got our baby and put it on her breast, and changed sides until my baby was sated, and mostly I was in tears the whole time because it was so unfair that I wanted so badly to nurse my baby, and I had to do this. It was cruel for me, but I would do anything for my baby. When my daughter had her babies, she shocked both grandmas by only allowing me to look after her newborns when she had to go somewhere.

Hugs,

Allie

 

[Linde]

These are rationalizations for trans-exclusionary folks ruling out contact with entire classes of humans. Small classes, to be sure, but they are excluded for simply being what they are. Most of these rationalizations have their roots in a hateful book, Janice Raymond’s “The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male” (Beacon Press, 1979), which promoted a bizarre mythology about transgender people and women in particular.

During several discussions with theseTERF folks, I learned that one is not able to pin them down to a single opinion why they don't like trans women. It most of the time they start with this socializing thing, but I was raised like a girl for the first 6 years of my life, and the subsequent years I was pretty much similar to Michelle the one who receives the beatings and was made fun of. Once they had this digested, they switched to the chromosome bit, which did not do anything, because I have the XX guys like they do, the final argument was menstruation and pregnancy, , and i was wondering if that excludes XY women, and women who had a hysterectomy. They mostly refuse to discuss any further with me. I think TREF's are afraid to lose their safe places, and fear to be overrolled by some very aggressive trans woman. I never met such a woman until 2 days ago in a German forum. This person was threatening me with a lawsuit, because I mentioned that her biological body is not female (we were talking about hormones). I can understand that more timit natal women can feel threatened by trans women like her, I would not want to have anything to do with her in real life. Clinging together and acquiring the TERF attitude seems for some of them a way to protect their safe spaces.


Hugs
Linde

 

[Linde]

I don't know where you ladies get this baby thing from? I was never interested in any of them, for me babies are a noisy nuisance (Amber and my daughter in law agree). I never would have even wanted to be pregnant, I disliked it when my ovary acted up once a month.
Femininity is not necessary connected to motherhood and apple pie, there are enough women, who don't care about either of those.
There are many cis and trans women out there who are not interested in this either.
Please make sure that you do not project this onto other trans women, because reproduction, or it's desire is not what defines us, it is something of an individual person.
I have had female friends only for at least 15 years, but none of this was tied into motherhood stuff. Yes, once in a while I have to remind them that some of my body parts are different of theirs, but I think people tend to forget when relaxed with the contacts each other.

Hugs
Linde

 

[Katie]

@Linde I never had the maternal desires as strongly as some, like @OzGirl , did, but it was there at various points in my life. Having children with my wife largely satisfied that desire, even if I never got to experience pregnancy and birth (which I had really wanted to). I know some cisgender women who are not able to have children and some of them found an acceptable alternative through surrogacy or adoption. It did not completely satisfy all of their desires, but it was "close enough". Such was the case for me. Being closely involved with my wife's pregnancies and delivering all six children with my own hands was "close enough". I went through it six times and by the sixth pregnancy I knew the birthing process better than my wife did. The obstetrician looked kind of dejected as he sat over at the corner of the bed. I had made it clear that we didn't want his help unless there was medical urgency that required intervention. Now, all these years and deliveries later, I feel mostly okay with knowing I won't ever experience pregnancy or child birth firsthand as a mother. Having 6 children in 10 years, my wife was almost perpetually pregnant and/or nursing. I have had over a decade of that stuff nonstop every day. What my experience lacked in quality was made up for in quantity.

 

[OzGirl]

For me, this transitioning to female is vastly secondary to my need to be a mother, and not having the parts needed to carry and birth babies means I will never feel like a woman. I assisted in the birth of both of my children and it was wonderful and very frustrating at the same time. I know a few cis women who cannot have children, and I have spoken to them. They do not feel like women either.

Knowing I can never be complete takes some transition pressure off me. I will always identify as trans, so it isn’t critical that I look completely female. I want to, but I will probably not have any surgeries other than GRS Labiaplasty, and that decision was more about getting rid of unwanted tissue than trying to feel complete.

I know I am different, I always have been, I’m used to it.

Hugs,

Allie

 

[Katie]

I have one such cis female friend. Her struggle with infertility has been very difficult emotionally.

 

[Rachel]

Hi,

I was going through our HR web page for an employee issue. I came across the topic of transgender. I clicked on it and it was the power point from Dr. William Powers presentation. I was shocked to see it. I will review it with the Director of our trans program.

 

[Linde]

Powers is not an endocrinologist, and everything he teaches is based on his own experience. Powers has some good ideas, but some are pretty strange. Many,if not most, endocrinologists don't agree with his ideas. He has not been able to publish, because the science publishers don't accept his papers without peer review. He seems not be able to convince a peer group to review his ides and theses.

because of this I would be carefull to use his presentation as the base for your companies trans program.

Hugs
Linde

 

[OzGirl]

Hi,

I was going through our HR web page for an employee issue. I came across the topic of transgender. I clicked on it and it was the power point from Dr. William Powers presentation. I was shocked to see it. I will review it with the Director of our trans program.

Rachel, Powers is very experienced with trans patients, having treated thousands with a high degree of satisfaction, but he questions the practices and ideas of established trans doctors, and they don't like that. He is quite knowledgeable and does have a following among doctors who have adopted parts of the "Powers Method". I'm not sure his 2 hour presentation is the best material for a HR department, but parts of it explain who trans people are and their treatment quite well. I simply could not point you to a better source of information though, and most of the rest of the published works are outdated and simply incorrect.

I would certainly prefer to put my trans care in the hands of Dr Powers rather than the doctors I have dealt with who have little idea about trans needs.

Hugs,

Allie

 

[Linde]

I very much disagree with Allie that Powers id the most knowledgeable authority in transgender care! The UCSF worked with transgender subjects already prior to powers becoming a physician. If you want to have some scientifically based information, you can find it in their research papers.

Introduction | Transgender Care

Introduction to the guidelines UCSF Transgender Care at the University of California - San Francisco is proud to present these Guidelines for the Primary and Gender-Affirming Care of Transgender and Gender Nonbinary People. Transgender people have a gender identity that differs from the sex...

transcare.ucsf.edu

I am in no way connected with the UCSF, and were never involved in any of her research. But as a medical researcher, I hold their work up very high, and would always fall back on it for information.


Hugs
Linde