Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!

A Feminine male vs Transgender

Maybebaby56

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
Messages
187
Terri, Thanks for the compliment! As far as spending $$ goes, having professional makeovers is one time I am willing to splurge on myself. That pic is about five years old now, but is the “me” I hold in my head. And I gave the name Nancy to my femme self (after a friend of my mother’s who I admired) and have used only that name for 40- plus years. Thanks for bringing a smile to my face.

Glad you posted here, but keep in mind, this is the non-transitioning forum — which I only highlight because those of us who have chosen not to transition have our own unique set of problems (which isn’t to suggest that we can’t and don’t learn for those of you who do). Kindness to you as well, Nancy
Oops. I didn't even check. I am a dunce. Sorry.
 

Maybe Cora

Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2021
Messages
11
Gender Pronouns
He, Him, His, Himself
Gender Identity
Genderfluid
Gender is more than something we tell ourselves we are. It is a way we live our lives, it is a way we behave day-to-day, and towards others. I feel like my "male-ness" constricts me. Perhaps this is a confinement of my own making, but I really can't have it both ways. I can't be entirely feminine and have my marriage, too. I know that staying means that I suppress some of what I want and how I feel.

I understand and relate. Certainly in my own marriage, there were expectations that I would play certain roles expected of men, both between the two of us and for others and maintain an acceptably passing manly expression and presentation in most settings. (acceptably passing meaning, perhaps, "feminine male?") And I was willing to do so for the sake of her companionship and our relationship. If would still be willing to. An unspoken assumption in a lot of trans discussion is that expressing, asserting, and proclaiming gender identity is the one and the only thing that matters for a meaningful and satisfying life. And maybe it is for some people, but it isn't for everybody and no ones's priorities are morally superior (or "more authentic") than anyone else's. We all try to arrange our lives as best we can with the cards we are dealt.

But isn't this true of all of us regardless of gender identity or trans-ness? I know lots of ciswomen who have to play roles in their relationships that mass culture would tell us are supposed to be the preserve of men. No one lives the perfect platonic form (if there even is such a thing for gender). Everyone suppresses parts of themselves. Women in workplaces where all the structure and assumptions are designed for men? (In other words, most jobs.) Cismen changing diapers and doing housework and crying? (All things they "aren't supposed to do" according to retrograde American gender roles.) Really, when it comes to gender everyone is Androgyne to some extent. Is there such a thing as a woman who cannot, when necessary, be confrontational?, competitive?, violent? A man who cannot be empathetic?, nurturing?, compromising?

The things that are hardest may be the ones that are most superficial: clothes, manners, make-up, vocalizations, etc. And, or course, that is because there are the most visible and therefore most harshly policed aspects.
 
Last edited:

NancyBalik

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
126
Thank you Cora, for adding to this discussion. Gets me to thinking: Is it more acceptable for a cis woman to set aside role expectations and assume more opposite gender behaviors? I have a sister-in-law who never wears makeup, jewelry, earrings, etc. I’ve only seen her in dresses at her children’s weddings. Her typical dress is jeans and a hoodie in winter and t-shirt in summer. No one gives a second look or comments. I’d never describe her as feminine. I’m quite sure I like girly things far more than she does! :)
 

Katie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
2,671
Gender Pronouns
She, Her, Hers, Herself
Gender Identity
Female
@NancyBalik you describe my wife perfectly. The only thing feminine about her is her voice and her hair. She has only worn makeup once, on our wedding day, and wears jeans and hooded sweatshirts even when it's over 90 degrees out.
 

Maybe Cora

Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2021
Messages
11
Gender Pronouns
He, Him, His, Himself
Gender Identity
Genderfluid
Thank you Cora, for adding to this discussion. Gets me to thinking: Is it more acceptable for a cis woman to set aside role expectations and assume more opposite gender behaviors? I have a sister-in-law who never wears makeup, jewelry, earrings, etc. I’ve only seen her in dresses at her children’s weddings. Her typical dress is jeans and a hoodie in winter and t-shirt in summer. No one gives a second look or comments. I’d never describe her as feminine. I’m quite sure I like girly things far more than she does! :)

Yes, I think it is more acceptable. That it is so is down to three things: The first, proximate thing is the success of feminist ideas and agitators in breaking down dress codes in mid-century. Not so long ago it was definitely NOT acceptable in the US and other English speaking countries for women to wear trousers, or go hatless, or (depending on age and class) appear without makeup or gloves or jewelry or whatever. To do so was to court being labeled as a lesbian at best and being killed at worst, with all manner of dismissal, incarceration, or violence in between. The second thing is the economic shifts that have moved women into the paid workforce. The office, the factory, the workshop, even the retail shop, are all environments designed for men to work in; to succeed, females (and males) are, at a fundamental level, asked not to behave like women more than incidentally. (This is changing, but slowly.)

The third, deeper thing is the deep set misogyny of our culture. Our gender structure of men and women has never been "separate but equal." It quite usually takes the masculine as the default, the ideal, the preferred. To this pattern of thinking, for a female to want to be a man or even just acquire aspects of male privilege and status is understandable whether you think it right or wrong, foolish or wise, unnatural, whatever. But for a male to want to be a woman or appear or behave as one is abhorrent and perverse. It is a will to disempower, to humble yourself, to serve rather than lead (because such stereotypes are deeply engrained in the man/woman binary).

Are you familiar with the word "virago?" Although sometimes used since the 19th Century (one of the most misogynist ages of Western history) to mean "a domineering, violent, or bad-tempered woman," it's original and still academically common meaning is "a woman of masculine strength or spirit; a female warrior." European history is replete with legendary viragos, some mythic some real, from the Amazons to Joan of Arc. But can you find many similar folk tales of males who act as women? When such characters appear it is as shorthand for fools, cowards, and dissolutes. (And, inevitably, homosexuality). How many words can you think of that mean "a feminine man?" Now, how many of them are not pejoratives? Although some of them were not coined as insults, they all become that. (The only exceptions I can think of are those only 20 years or less old--and there is a struggle over them!)

It is definitely more acceptable for a female to want to be a man or take on elements of the masculine gender than for a male to want to be a woman or take on aspects of the feminine. It has always been so, but it is more so today than say in the time of our grandparents.
 
Last edited:

NancyBalik

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
126
@NancyBalik you describe my wife perfectly. The only thing feminine about her is her voice and her hair. She has only worn makeup once, on our wedding day, and wears jeans and hooded sweatshirts even when it's over 90 degrees out.
Katie, Given how feminine you are, it’s fascinating to me that you chose her. I’ve always been attracted to ultra feminine women. My wife sold cosmetics at one time,(she was a professional woman, I mean when she was in college), is great at makeup, and I admire her style!
 

Katie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
2,671
Gender Pronouns
She, Her, Hers, Herself
Gender Identity
Female
Katie, Given how feminine you are, it’s fascinating to me that you chose her. I’ve always been attracted to ultra feminine women. My wife sold cosmetics at one time,(she was a professional woman, I mean when she was in college), is great at makeup, and I admire her style!
My wife was (and still is) very attractive without makeup. Her clothing style, on the other hand, is deliberately frumpy. At the time, I didn't care. I liked her. But as the years went on and I began to understand why she dressed the way she does, I came to realize that she hates being seen as attractive. She has a very strong aversion to being seen as attractive, even by me. Aside from a boyfriend many years ago who got a little touchy with her, I am not aware of any serious sexual abuse or anything else, besides religious conditioning, that caused her to hate her own attractiveness.
 

NancyBalik

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
126
Wow, Katie! Too bad for her to not be able to experience a joy of femininity. But, it explains one helluva lot about why she’d have difficulty tolerating YOUR femininity. Such repression! I wouldn’t say my wife “flaunts” or. Not at all. She just enjoys being pretty. So do I! :)
 

Katie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
2,671
Gender Pronouns
She, Her, Hers, Herself
Gender Identity
Female
Wow, Katie! Too bad for her to not be able to experience a joy of femininity. But, it explains one helluva lot about why she’d have difficulty tolerating YOUR femininity. Such repression! I wouldn’t say my wife “flaunts” or. Not at all. She just enjoys being pretty. So do I! :)
The matter of my femininity is a weird mixed bag for her. She has told me that she thinks I look better now than I did before. At some level, she does find something about the way I look now to be pleasant. But she also has her religious objections, cultural objections, family objections (although her mother hasn't said a word about it to her or to me, and is actually here in our house as I type this and is fully aware of my changes and the reasons for them), and the objections of her friends. It is a source of great conflict for her.
 

Donica

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 24, 2019
Messages
1,572
Gender Pronouns
She, Her, Hers, Herself
Gender Identity
Female
@NancyBalik, sorry I'm late to this discussion. I wish you well and hope you find peace with your decision to remain non-op. I admire your strength, courage, and love you possess for your wife, and know how difficult it is denying our selves what we may truly desire in terms of our true identities. The inability to transition in my past nearly killed me, and is now the only thing that saved my life. I have a dear friend that identifies as genderfluid, who only just recently came out to her wife and children. She has maintained a double life for many years now, but suffers from an ever increasing depression because of her true desire to live as a woman. It takes a truly remarkable person to maintain such a lifestyle.

Hugs!
 

Linde

Adminstrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
4,801
Gender Pronouns
She, Her, Hers, Herself
Gender Identity
Intersex
. I have a dear friend that identifies as genderfluid, who only just recently came out to her wife and children. She has maintained a double life for many years now, but suffers from an ever increasing depression because of her true desire to live as a woman. It takes a truly remarkable person to maintain such a lifestyle.

Hugs!
Donica, your friend may need a therapist badly! I was agender/gender fluid most of my life, and that allowed me to live in a happy marriage for about 36 years. If one is gender fluid, one can live at any given time in any gender following ones desire.
My marriage fell apart after something inside me started to mess with my gender feeling, and I drifted more and more toward the female gender. I think I still have a tiny bit of the gender fluidity inside me, because dead naming does not bother me, and misgendering neither, and I think that I still could act like a guy for very short periods of time (if I would have guy clothing that fits me).
But I sure do not consider myself anymore to be still gender fluid. I want to be a woman, and I want to live as a woman, and I actually live like any other cis woman of my age group.

Hugs
Linde
 

_Michelle_

Active member
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
40
I don’t know about a supported argument, would anecdotal do?

Before COVID I went out with my friends every week or other week Thursday for lunch. Just girls having fun, being stupid, gossip and having someone pick off your plate, or just as frequently having them say, You should try this. and you pick off their plate. My one friends gay nephew joined us one time, he never came back and I thought it was him. Many months later, on the phone with that friend, I asked what happened to him. Verbatim...

”He said I am one of the girls, just the same as her, why did everyone treat me like an outsider?“ She said, “Dear you are not an outsider and we are fine with you there, but you are not girl.” He asked why she would treat me differently than him, she said, “She is not one of the girls, she just is a girl.”

It is not the same apparently. Now all but one of that friend group did not know until after a year of knowing them that I was trans, they have never treated me any differently since though. Wait no, shortly after them finding out, our Thursday lunch I went through the questions, Really? I can’t see it. What happened to your Adam’s apple? Did the hormones change your voice? Do you still have your... well, you know? I was the hour of inquisition, it never happened again. Truthfully, most of the time they don’t remember, easier for me just to never bring it up.
 

NancyBalik

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
126
Of course (related to expressing gender) there is no right or wrong way to live our lives. I’ve thought about this SO much: would I have been willing to give up all the good things in my marriage, all the companionship, the support, the shared family (kids and grandkids), the adventures we have had together, etc., etc., for transition and living my life as a woman? Obviously, the answer has always been ‘no.’ I do not have regrets about staying. Sure, I still (every day) fantasize about being a woman. I envy my wife considerably. She is increasingly accepting my femininity. We are talking about it more (finally). Some others have described losing their marriages over this. If she had left me, I probably would have taken steps towards transition, but the marriage has always come first and her love for me has been more important than anything else. That’s how I chose to spend my years — obviously no judgement on anyone else — and I would never suggest that I took the more difficult or courageous path.

My position may reflect a bit of a minority stance on this particular forum, but you all know that there are many, many people like me who are on the transgender spectrum (call us crossdressers or whatever) who are “feminine males” or males who flirt with femininity or crossdress every day who never transition. I do think that if I was born in a different time (years later) and did not get married so young (21) to this amazing woman who has continued to love me, well then... Nancy
 

OzGirl

Global Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 24, 2019
Messages
2,558
Gender Pronouns
She, Her, Hers, Herself
Gender Identity
Female
Nancy, 3 years ago I stood in your shoes, though by then Mary had accepted me as Allie all the time I was home. I knew the risks of transition, and was determined not to take those risks. Few would have understood my choices, but I was so happy, I literally pinched myself to see if I was dreaming. I had to transition, it wasn’t as bad as I thought, but cost me way more than I was willing to pay! In truth, it has saved my health, but I am not happy. I long to feel the happiness of 3 years ago again, but I fear that part of my life is gone. If you are happy, that is what matters!

Hugs,

Allie
 

Confused

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 4, 2020
Messages
633
Gender Pronouns
He, Him, His, Himself
Gender Identity
Genderfluid
Nancy,

As you know, if it were not for my medical issue, I would have been in your lane. I am more excited about getting relief than the possibility of blowing up my life. I have choked this thing down for 6 decades and would have continued to do so for my family. And now I will have to worry about getting health care in my state!

I am sorry for what you have had to endure Allie.

Hugs,
Mike.
 

Monica

Fight for self love!
Joined
Feb 1, 2020
Messages
2,390
Gender Pronouns
She, Her, Hers, Herself
Gender Identity
Female
and I would never suggest that I took the more difficult or courageous path.
Nancy, in my opinion, yes, this is the more difficult and courageous path.

My position may reflect a bit of a minority stance on this particular forum, but you all know that there are many, many people like me who are on the transgender spectrum (call us crossdressers or whatever) who are “feminine males” or males who flirt with femininity or crossdress every day who never transition.
I'll give you nothing but respect for your choices. Hope you never feel otherwise here!
 

Melanierose

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2020
Messages
180
Gender Pronouns
She, Her, Hers, Herself
Gender Identity
Female
Of course (related to expressing gender) there is no right or wrong way to live our lives. I’ve thought about this SO much: would I have been willing to give up all the good things in my marriage, all the companionship, the support, the shared family (kids and grandkids), the adventures we have had together, etc., etc., for transition and living my life as a woman? Obviously, the answer has always been ‘no.’ I do not have regrets about staying. Sure, I still (every day) fantasize about being a woman. I envy my wife considerably. She is increasingly accepting my femininity. We are talking about it more (finally). Some others have described losing their marriages over this. If she had left me, I probably would have taken steps towards transition, but the marriage has always come first and her love for me has been more important than anything else. That’s how I chose to spend my years — obviously no judgement on anyone else — and I would never suggest that I took the more difficult or courageous path.

My position may reflect a bit of a minority stance on this particular forum, but you all know that there are many, many people like me who are on the transgender spectrum (call us crossdressers or whatever) who are “feminine males” or males who flirt with femininity or crossdress every day who never transition. I do think that if I was born in a different time (years later) and did not get married so young (21) to this amazing woman who has continued to love me, well then... Nancy
I suppose I am lucky. My ex was horrified by what I was and wasn’t helpful. So it was easy for me to go. Children (now 32&34) followed her lead saying I had lied about my life. My mother doesn’t want to see me ever. But I didn’t need their permission. And they didn’t ‘ need’ me
I left as honourably as I could.
best thing I ever did.
I have just discussed changing my surname to anthonys as we are sort of married and he agreed it was ok.
 

SuzieO

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 25, 2020
Messages
76
Gender Pronouns
She, Her, Hers, Herself
Gender Identity
Female
Of course (related to expressing gender) there is no right or wrong way to live our lives. I’ve thought about this SO much: would I have been willing to give up all the good things in my marriage, all the companionship, the support, the shared family (kids and grandkids), the adventures we have had together, etc., etc., for transition and living my life as a woman? Obviously, the answer has always been ‘no.’ I do not have regrets about staying. Sure, I still (every day) fantasize about being a woman. I envy my wife considerably. She is increasingly accepting my femininity. We are talking about it more (finally). Some others have described losing their marriages over this. If she had left me, I probably would have taken steps towards transition, but the marriage has always come first and her love for me has been more important than anything else. That’s how I chose to spend my years — obviously no judgement on anyone else — and I would never suggest that I took the more difficult or courageous path.

My position may reflect a bit of a minority stance on this particular forum, but you all know that there are many, many people like me who are on the transgender spectrum (call us crossdressers or whatever) who are “feminine males” or males who flirt with femininity or crossdress every day who never transition. I do think that if I was born in a different time (years later) and did not get married so young (21) to this amazing woman who has continued to love me, well then... Nancy
I’m in a similar boat, Nancy. My wife accepts me as trans and I wear women’s clothes everyday but she doesn’t really like it. I always try to push the limits of how much to transition, but the marriage is more important. Right now I’m happy that she lets me wear some of her clothes. I think and hope she accepts me as a woman more everyday but it is not easy for her. Hugs, Suzie
 

Linde

Adminstrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
4,801
Gender Pronouns
She, Her, Hers, Herself
Gender Identity
Intersex
. My ex was horrified by what I was and wasn’t helpful. So it was easy for me to go. Children (now 32&34) followed her lead saying I had lied about my life.
What a difference in our lives! My ex left me because she did not want to be in a lesbian relation, but she is now a very good friend of mine. When I came out to my son (34 like your kid), he said " finally you come out to me, everybody could see that you are intersex. I will do what I can to help you". And we are still pretty close, I think his wife has difficulties with having a father in law who is a woman. She never says anything, and does not misgender me, but I have a certain feeling about this.

Hugs
Linde
 
En Femme 728 x 90
Top Bottom